diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[frederick Member Find all posts View Profile Close frederick]

The dreaded injector rattle.

Mine has just started the "tak tak tak" rattle during the last two colder mornings in Brisbane. It happens when under light load and stops once engine reaches operating temperature. You cannot hear it on cold idle only when under load. I guess i will be heading down to Matherson street Virginia to get the injectors pulled and replaced if required.
I will keep everyone posted.

[myminirocks Member Find all posts View Profile Close myminirocks]

So we had the ecu flashed and upgraded, we have driven 400klms and it could be wishful thinking but the car 'feels' smoother. The rattle is still most deffinately there, but somehow a little less, and seems to settle down a but quicker. The 'knock' and rough idle seems to be reduced (again, still there though). We took a drive over Mount Glorious and back again and it seemed pull beautifully up the mountain, much less 'hunting' for the right gear.

Anyway, could be wishful thinking but the ecu upgrade has made some difference, well see if it continues to improve.

[ROB83R Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ROB83R]

I'm next inline. Mine has the sickness. Getting my Toyota tech mate to price injectors and lines and he'll fit them for me for beer. Hopefully I can get away with it for under $2500 but I'm not holding my breath.
Will post more findings and facts later on.

Thanks PP if it was for this site I would be pulling my hair out.

[frederick Member Find all posts View Profile Close frederick]

Hi, i have booked mine into Diesel Specialists in Matherson street, Virginia Brisbane for next tuesday to get 4 spanking (i have seen them) denso injectors and new fuel pipes fitted. I have been quoted $3200 so will wait and see how it all turns out.

[Landuser Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Landuser]

Read with interest the Melb. Herald sun Article Today re Hilux D4D problems. Same engine as Prado right?

Tough but breakable

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/ute...-1226351998636

This relates to threads & key words:

Injector seal leak=oil pickup block=engine failure D4D

Perhaps we can start a new thread on this issue.

the recall mentioned in the UK is no doubt related to the same link:

http://www.toyota-tech.eu/toms_cabs/EN/1KET-015.pdf

Hope that dealerships in OZ can start to assist owners with simple checks before this issue allows their engines to prematurely self destruct.

[Riv39 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Riv39]

Read with interest the Melb. Herald sun Article Today re Hilux D4D problems. Same engine as Prado right?

Tough but breakable

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/ute...-1226351998636

This relates to threads & key words:

Injector seal leak=oil pickup block=engine failure D4D

Perhaps we can start a new thread on this issue.

the recall mentioned in the UK is no doubt related to the same link:

http://www.toyota-tech.eu/toms_cabs/EN/1KET-015.pdf

Hope that dealerships in OZ can start to assist owners with simple checks before this issue allows their engines to prematurely self destruct.

Glad I change my oil every 5000km....

[Landuser Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Landuser]

G'day Riv39

Re Tough but breakable D4D,

If an Injector leak has occured over a period of time,

Not even Regular oil changes will remove the problem contaminant that will kill your engine.

Its a heavy granulated carbon contaminant that sits in the sump base and will not pass the low internal slot of the sump bung, it just sits their and collects, no matter how many oil changes you do.

Because it is no like a sludge, that is why it sucks up on the screen and slowly blocks it, the worst granules are say 2-5mm in diameter. Too bad they stay captured in the sump.

Don't think just oil changes will deal with it, unfurtunately I can say for sure this is not the case. So it would be very wise to check if your screen is clear.

You need to look into the sump bung at you next oil change and hope you see a clear Pickup screen mesh.

Good Luck Riv39

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

I doubt it is such a problem for owners having the seals replaced as long as they don't wait too long to get the work attended to after the first symptoms occur. (Blowing smoke at start-up, especially when vehicle has been sitting for a while with nose downhill).

Personally, I think regular oil changes are very worthwhile. The carbon deposits in the sump are a build-up. The granular material doesn't start out as large particles, but binds together to form what has been described previously. Regular oil changes go some way to avoiding this IMO.

When I did my seals, we put a bore scope up the sump plug hole and checked everything out. It all looked good and clean, so I didn't remove the sump. I change my oil every 5000km religiously, and do a lot of km's each year, so that equates to about 7 to 10 oil changes per anum.
As I have said before, in my case, #1 injector was totally encased in carbon build-up, and was extremely difficult to remove from the head so I think my situation supports the opinion expressed above.

[Landuser Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Landuser]

G'day Davros,

The carbon particles start big, worst 2-5mm dia. and stay big. It's the break away material built up originally around the injector port & the injector from the leak. If it breaks away at 2-5mm in size it stays that way, moving down the engine oil galleries into the sump. It is captured their due to the design of the sump bung, it is not all allowed to drain when you dump the oil.

The concerning thing is that you may not get any symptoms as some experience right up until your engine blows.

In our instance, Injectors were actually working OK, In fact engine was running well with no signs at all of problems, no "death rattle" no smoke, etc, etc, regualrly serviced with regualr oil changes at a well known dealer.

Injector seal (washer) leaks, only discovered after failed engine teardown, when we actually pulled the injectors out, and found the packed in carbon between the injector and the injector port.

This carbon from combustion leak can pack in so tight it re-seals the combustion chamber to a point, thus further masking the problem, but because of the pressure it still slowly migrates out of the port into the oil galleries and down into the sump, slowly collection until the final Oil pick up screen blockage and oil starvation kills the engine.

As I mentioned, I can see now that no matter how many oil changes you do, you will not get rid of this stuff unless you drop the sump and do a major clean out. So you can't blame dealer, they need to know what to look out for via a Toyota TSB or something similar, like in Europe.

Its not really an injector problem, it is an injector seal problem, and if, like in NZ, they change 'em out every 45,00O KLM, it will never get enough buildup to kill you engine.

Looks like the Kiwi Techs at Toyota NZ are one step ahead of our blokes in helping keep customers cars properly maintained.

Landuser

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

I don't think we disagree. When I did mine, and in the couple that I have worked on with similar issues, the carbon buildup has been as you described in two out of the three.
In my case it was the same as you describe on #1 with the buildup totally encasing the injector, and freezing it inside the bore. It was a pr!ck to remove.
It was as you described, in that the carbon had essentially sealed the bore.
If the defect is left too long, then yes, hunks of accumulated carbon will break off and have lead to the strainer blockages as you have alluded to previously. This has been after the engine has been left in a defective state for some time though.

My comments regarding oil changes in my previous post are based on experiences working on three engines with the problem.
1 Prado, and two hiluxes. In all cases, the strainer was clean, as was the sump. Regular servicing was the norm for these engines, and two of the three had heavy carbonisation in the bore on #1.
I saw another that my friend worked on, where the strainer was 1/2 blocked. This was a 2010 hilux leased by the local council. They were lucky that the problem was rectified in time. I stress this was a august 2010 model. The 1KD in this case had copper seals, not the new aluminium seals that are now suppled by TMC but which have the same part number as the copper seals. (so I am told)

This 2010 lux was serviced at 10,000km intervals, and could have been suffering a seal failure for most of 10,000kms. The council service request noted white smoke at startup, hence the work being done at service time.

[Syzprado Member Find all posts View Profile Close Syzprado]

All Done... Got my injectors replaced thursday gone and it came to a grand total of $3823.70

itemised list
genuine air filter : 64.90 x1
genuine oil filter : 25.90 x1
genuine feul filter: 79.20 x1
1HZ sump plug washer : 2.70 x1
Hilux inj/pipe Gasket : 13.70 x5
12v 5w globe : 3.50 x1
Engine oil : 8.80 x7
Engine oil : 4.40 x1
EPA Oil removal : 5.50 x1
Sundries : 12.50 x1
labor, carry out 200k service as required, change engine oil and filter, replace air and fuel filters, check all gear and diff oils, grease all points, check all lights belts hoses and fluid levels, test glow plugs, inspect intake manifold for carbon build up, remove and fitted new fuel injectors, have new injectors coded into computer, check all brakes steering tyres and wheel bearings. Checked all tappets, road tested OK. : 99.00 x8
4 new injectors : 2703.00 x1

does this sound right?

Runs perfectly no extra noise anymore. A bit more power and better economy in theory though i'm having too much fun with the extra power offroad to get any solid data.

[Landuser Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Landuser]

I don't think we disagree. When I did mine, and in the couple that I have worked on with similar issues, the carbon buildup has been as you described in two out of the three.
In my case it was the same as you describe on #1 with the buildup totally encasing the injector, and freezing it inside the bore. It was a pr!ck to remove.
It was as you described, in that the carbon had essentially sealed the bore.
If the defect is left too long, then yes, hunks of accumulated carbon will break off and have lead to the strainer blockages as you have alluded to previously. This has been after the engine has been left in a defective state for some time though.

My comments regarding oil changes in my previous post are based on experiences working on three engines with the problem.
1 Prado, and two hiluxes. In all cases, the strainer was clean, as was the sump. Regular servicing was the norm for these engines, and two of the three had heavy carbonisation in the bore on #1.
I saw another that my friend worked on, where the strainer was 1/2 blocked. This was a 2010 hilux leased by the local council. They were lucky that the problem was rectified in time. I stress this was a august 2010 model. The 1KD in this case had copper seals, not the new aluminium seals that are now suppled by TMC but which have the same part number as the copper seals. (so I am told)

This 2010 lux was serviced at 10,000km intervals, and could have been suffering a seal failure for most of 10,000kms. The council service request noted white smoke at startup, hence the work being done at service time.

G'day Davros,

One possibility on the 2010 with copper seals, If it already has had a new long motor, it could have been old stock.
Long motors come complete with Injectors & seals fitted. Otherwise perhaps a seal job was done with superceeded seal inventory. They do actually have a different part number

Copper look 11176-30010 (superseeded)
Silver plated look 11176-30011 (current)

Interesting you have also seen screens starting to block on other D4D's

landuser.

[Mullos Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Mullos]

Hi new to the forum and really impressed with what I've found out here. I too have the injector problem in my 07 but Toyota did not come thru for me with any of the cost (out of warranty, 2nd hand, and done 135,000) despite appealing. I am now planning to go to Dept Fair Trading with a small claim, but would really appreciate hearing what you guys reckon is the 'normal' life for injectors as they reckon it is 'normal' wear and tear and due to bad fuel (but from memory they paid 50% for someone here who had done around 150,000km). Injectors (inspection or replacement) do not appear in the service schedule (which goes up to 200K) so surely they are expected to last longer than that - this is part of my central argument and google searching has come with anything from 100,000 to hundreds of 1,000's of lifespan. Any ideas? Also how's this for an injector cost - Toyota wanted to charge me $970 per brand new injector - I phoned around and got them for around half that. Also based on the recent posts about the seals am getting that done too. Can someone also confirm that the ECU needs to be reflashed after the new injectors are put in?
Any comments re: injector life welcome.
Thanks
Mullos

[Landuser Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Landuser]

Hi new to the forum and really impressed with what I've found out here. I too have the injector problem in my 07 but Toyota did not come thru for me with any of the cost (out of warranty, 2nd hand, and done 135,000) despite appealing. I am now planning to go to Dept Fair Trading with a small claim, but would really appreciate hearing what you guys reckon is the 'normal' life for injectors as they reckon it is 'normal' wear and tear and due to bad fuel (but from memory they paid 50% for someone here who had done around 150,000km). Injectors (inspection or replacement) do not appear in the service schedule (which goes up to 200K) so surely they are expected to last longer than that - this is part of my central argument and google searching has come with anything from 100,000 to hundreds of 1,000's of lifespan. Any ideas? Also how's this for an injector cost - Toyota wanted to charge me $970 per brand new injector - I phoned around and got them for around half that. Also based on the recent posts about the seals am getting that done too. Can someone also confirm that the ECU needs to be reflashed after the new injectors are put in?
Any comments re: injector life welcome.
Thanks
Mullos

G'day Mullos, I would strongly suggest you read the enire thread "Injector Oil seals" Your problem my not be limited to Injectors but also you could have the related and more serious Oil Pickup Blockage from leaking injector seals.

You may have grounds to contact Toyota again in this respect.

Give it a good read and check out if the pics relate to your problem, Also check these links:

http://www.toyota-tech.eu/toms_cabs/EN/1KET-015.pdf

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/ute...-1226351998636

The above tough but breakable also relates to Prado D4D

Good Luck with It

Landuser

[Landuser Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Landuser]

Hi new to the forum and really impressed with what I've found out here. I too have the injector problem in my 07 but Toyota did not come thru for me with any of the cost (out of warranty, 2nd hand, and done 135,000) despite appealing. I am now planning to go to Dept Fair Trading with a small claim, but would really appreciate hearing what you guys reckon is the 'normal' life for injectors as they reckon it is 'normal' wear and tear and due to bad fuel (but from memory they paid 50% for someone here who had done around 150,000km). Injectors (inspection or replacement) do not appear in the service schedule (which goes up to 200K) so surely they are expected to last longer than that - this is part of my central argument and google searching has come with anything from 100,000 to hundreds of 1,000's of lifespan. Any ideas? Also how's this for an injector cost - Toyota wanted to charge me $970 per brand new injector - I phoned around and got them for around half that. Also based on the recent posts about the seals am getting that done too. Can someone also confirm that the ECU needs to be reflashed after the new injectors are put in?
Any comments re: injector life welcome.
Thanks
Mullos

G'day Mullos,

Latest Article in Hearald Sun today will be relevent:

No, I am afraid it's not Prada Du-ne All right

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/no-...-1226359199033

When you look at Injectors look at your Oil Screen As well.

By Graham Smith

Landuser