CVs Skidplate and Rock sliders

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

There's no need to visually inspect the sliders, anyone can see the design from the photos.

As far as I recall the only photo I have posted was of a tacked together incomplete mount, even a fully assembled one you cant see everything in a photo!

Whether I'm interested in buying a set from you should have no relevance on this technical matter - unless we're having a sales/marketing discussion as well.

You bought up the topic of marketing not me, see post 7! I am just pointing out I am not changing the design for some random guy who doesn't agree with it.

You're making assumptions about my background.

No I am not, last time we had this discussion I asked you if you had seen my sliders or had any welding, manufacturing or engineering experience and you told me you had none! Has any of that changed?

The high country isn't hard going - as you've stated yourself earlier this year (Easter) - didn't you say South Basalt Knob was easy in reverse whilst towing? I'd agree it was easy - I drove it in high range! Do you think people need rock sliders for tracks like that? Rock sliders are not being thoroughly tested there.

No I didn't say anything at all about South basalt being easy, or going up in reverse with a trailer, you have me confused with someone else there.

Whilst your bracket is likely to be performing some manner of strengthening of the area, there is little doubt that it could be done in a stronger way. Whether your potential customers require the additional strength or not is for them to decide. I only point out that such a mount design isn't ideal for rock crawling.

I doubt there has ever been anything in the history of the world that was built that couldn't have been stronger, you don't need to build things as strong as possible, you need to build them strong enough to handle the job at hand.

You show me any design for any set of rock sliders ever made for any vehicle and I'll point out how they could have been made stronger, that doesn't necessarily make them better, in fact it may well make them worse.

Honestly if you feel the need to save the world from the perils of my product then go your hardest, but I will continue to point out that you are talking about a product you have no experience with, and that you have no engineering experience on which to base your claims and people can decide for themselves.

Cheers Andrew

[glen_ep Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close glen_ep]

As far as I recall the only photo I have posted was of a tacked together incomplete mount, even a fully assembled one you cant see everything in a photo!

Have they changed from this design?
www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?p=284697

I didn't change the design because you seem to be the only person who has an issue, and clearly you are not interested in a set. It's a lot of work to redesign an already great product to please one random guy on the Internet who doesn't like my design because of incorrect engineering assumptions.

You bought up the topic of marketing not me, see post 7! I am just pointing out I am not changing the design for some random guy who doesn't agree with it.

I am not asking you to redesign the product for me! Stop centering this debate about ME and what YOU THINK I WANT from your product. I don't care what you do with your product nor how many you sell. I am not the reason nor the excuse, I am only the messenger. You already spelt out the true reason 2 years ago when I pointed you towards an alternative mount design:

www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?p=311896

And your response was:

I have previously seen the thread that you linked to and whilst that system has a lot going for it, I am not willing to go with a dedsign that needs the removal of the sub tank in order to install it.

That there is a compromise.

You're making assumptions about my background. I could also make some assumptions about yours - that you have no experience with rock crawling - no experience landing a vehicle on this particular 90 series suspension mounting bracket (and being witness to the damaging results). Practical experience is essential. There's little value in boasting the practical experience of others with your product whilst simultaneously admitting you are not there to see where they drive.

No I am not, last time we had this discussion I asked you if you had seen my sliders or had any welding, manufacturing or engineering experience and you told me you had none! Has any of that changed?

Well actually I'm constantly developing my skills. Has the rear/passenger mount improved your sliders over the years? Have you now gained experience with rock crawling? Have you rock crawled with a 90 series? Can you tell me all the common places of impact under a 90 series?

We could debate personal qualifications and experience forever, but we won't get anywhere with it. I'd suggest we stick to discussing the technical aspects.

No I didn't say anything at all about South basalt being easy, or going up in reverse with a trailer, you have me confused with someone else there.

Conveniently the related posts have been deleted, but that's not the point. The point is that VIC High Country isn't very hard going at all, and the fact that you point that out as testing qualification shows something about your off-roading experience. It's one of my favorite destinations and I've never seen a single track which would require rock sliders, let alone consider it a worthy testing ground of rock sliders. Try spending a full day at Gees Arm South or climb Mt Walker a few times and you might start to appreciate the true value of rock sliders.

I doubt there has ever been anything in the history of the world that was built that couldn't have been stronger, you don't need to build things as strong as possible, you need to build them strong enough to handle the job at hand.

You show me any design for any set of rock sliders ever made for any vehicle and I'll point out how they could have been made stronger, that doesn't necessarily make them better, in fact it may well make them worse.

Now you're talking! I absolutely agree with this, and in fact, it's really the core of the debate. All designs are the result of several considerations - strength, weight, ease of build, ease of installation, etc. It's my opinion that whilst your mount design may be sufficient for most Prado owners, it is not sufficient for myself, nor anyone expecting to actually use them regularly on rocks. The design considerations are weighing too much on the ease of installation, and not enough on strength and the practical process of sliding over rocks.

Here's an interesting quote from the last time this topic was discussed:

Aside form that I am happy that the testing my customers have given my product is proof enough that they are up to the job. Whether they are up to the tyoe of extreme 4wdriving thta you and Glenn participate in is another subject, but you are not the type of people who buy my product.

Indeed.

treesmith, the original poster of this thread, stated he recently climbed Mt Walker. This puts him square into the same extreme bracket as myself for the kind of driving he does. Are you willing to guarantee hid slider mounts and rear control arm mount for this kind of driving? Last time you suggested that this kind of driving is too extreme for a Prado...

Honestly if you feel the need to save the world from the perils of my product then go your hardest, but I will continue to point out that you are talking about a product you have no experience with, and that you have no engineering experience on which to base your claims and people can decide for themselves.

Cheers Andrew

Yes, we will both continue to provide our opinions & advice to fellow enthusiasts, as everyone here does - but at least my advice comes without any self-interest or protection of profit.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Fair dinkum hey, you stayed up late last night to prove me wrong didn't you!

So yes I forgot I posted the mount pic, no it hasn't changed, but as I said before you cant see everything there is to see in a picture, if you had some first hand experience with my product you would understand that.

Sorry Glen but this about you and your opinion, and I stress its only an opinion. no one that has actually bought and used these sliders has an issue. once again if you actually had any first hand experience with them you might have a better understanding.

The difficulty of install is certainly a reason not to go the design you prefer, but added to that is that IMO the slider it self would be slightly weaker with that design, not enough to be of any real world significance but slightly weaker none the less. Also as I continue to point out that my design doesn't compromise the area you are concerned about but strengthens it. So why would I make a weaker slider that's harder to install and reduces the robustness of a part you are concerned about? Once again if you had any first hand experience with my product or understood even the basic fundamentals of what makes things strong or weak you might think differently.

By constantly developing your skills I presume you mean you still have no experience with my sliders, no design, construction, engineering, load testing, stress testing, destruction testing, welding and fabrication experience?

Sorry you spent all that time looking for the deleted posts, I know exactly the post you are referring to and I could have told you it had been deleted. I also know who wrote it, when it happened and exactly what it said, but I didn't write it!

As for the high country, for me that is the entire great dividing range, I didn't specify the Vic High country, I am sure the spots you mention are in the great dividing range! have you driven every single track in the Vic high country to know that none of them are worthy test grounds, and have you driven them at their worst (or best depending on your point of view)? There are a lot of tough tracks around this big country and my sliders are spread all over it so I am not sure how you know that none of those guys have ever driven any tracks worthy of a true test, or do you think you are the only person that has ever driven a 90 on a tough track? Sure sounds that way to me!

Now the Extreme driving, I will be a bit more blunt and bit less polite this time. That quote was not directed at you but your good mate. It was made after a fellow PP member over your way sent me a video of some of his driving, to be honest I might be a bit harsh dragging you into it because as I recall you weren't in the video. So to rephrase slightly, whether they are up to the extreme[ly] poor driving I saw in that video is another story.

If what I saw in that video was even remotely like what you guys do on a regular basis then you need to find another pastime, repeatedly just bashing the crap out of a vehicle to get over and obstacle that another (arguably less capable) vehicle got around with ease is just plain bad driving. So no I can not and will not guarantee that my sliders will stand up to any abuse no matter how bad the driver is. You seem to be under the impression that a rock slider makes a vehicle invincible and that regardless of the way a driver treats his vehicle that they should stand up to anything. The fact you claim to have driven South Basalt in high range just confirms some of my thoughts on the matter, I don't doubt you could, just like you can bash your way through obstacles or you can pick the correct line and ease through them.

On that note, do you think that ARB would guarantee their bullbars wont get damaged or cause damage if you hit a bull at any speed? I think not, every product has its limitations, some people understand that and some don't.

Finally you say we should keep this to technical matters and not make it about personal qualifications, yet you then go on to almost immediately question my 4wd credentials? I could write pages about where I have been and what I've done but suffice to say I drove my first 4wd track before you were born and can say with the utmost confidence that I have driven tracks harder than anything you have ever even seen, but I am sure you would disagree with that as well.

Reply as you wish but I have no further comment to make on this now pointless discussion.

Cheers Andrew

[Guest Close Guest]

As this original post was about someone asking where he can get certain bits let's get back on topic.
If you deem it so important to continue to flog this topic in the direction it's going please start another thread.
As like in the commented for sale post I see this as also crossing the line in regards to the original post and certainly heading towards the thread hijack / way off topic stage..

However. If you have good feedback from your personal experience of any slider or cv product. Then it would be good in this thread.. As was originally asked.

[MidLifeCrisis Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close MidLifeCrisis]

I may have posted that something about South basalt in reverse with a trailer. Please don't ignore the fact it was very wet too. I am still doing penance for that post so i don't want to elaborate.

I can say though I haven't yet done Walker, but plan to do it in reverse upwards with a trailer, but will have the assistance of AJ modified rock sliders and a 2 inch lift BUT in a 120 of course so I guess thats not relevant. Just saying to clarify the facts so leave me and Britney alone Piggy, we are both already on a warning and feeling guilty. Hope that clears up any confusion I may have caused.

Always helpful and a proud supporter of AJ quality rock sliders. Saved my butt quite a few times.

Also, don't look past the bash plates made by AMTS, another provider of quality product.

MLC
Treesmith, please note, I didn't really do South Basalt in reverse in the wet, with a trailer and probably won't do Walkers, with or without a trailer, wet or dry. Everything else is factual, including my rumoured good looks and beings everything that epitomises a legendary Aussie bloke.

[treesmith Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close treesmith]

Yes very good every one. I can tell that there is a wealth of knowledge amongst you all, and I could only imagine the super powers that would be if WE ALL sat around the same table and worked together on 1 thing.
Thanks again every one for your input, I have made my decisions and as with most things in life only time will tell of there integrity.

As a little background about me, wot seems like a life time ago, back in the UK, I did a lot of offroading with Suzuki sierras, buying accessories like bull bars roll cages and rock sliders was not an option for me, but instead I made every thing my self. But with my new life here in Australia, it is more efficient to go to work and earn the cash to pay some one else's talents to produce the finer things. That said, with the right tools I am more than capable of making/modifying parts to perform better/be stronger. so when I look at An ARB bar or some 5link suspension setup or wot ever, I am always thinking of ways to improve, I guess its in my nature. so I guess there is nothing wrong with some thing that isn't perfect.

[BlakMoth Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close BlakMoth]

Don't let this scare you off from asking questions treesmith. It doesn't happen all the time. There are some very knowledgeable people here, and some who even make quality products to help out other members.


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[treesmith Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close treesmith]

Its all relevant info, and its good to see 2 sides of the coin. I wouldn't want it any other way!

[glen_ep Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close glen_ep]

As this original post was about someone asking where he can get certain bits let's get back on topic.
If you deem it so important to continue to flog this topic in the direction it's going please start another thread.
As like in the commented for sale post I see this as also crossing the line in regards to the original post and certainly heading towards the thread hijack / way off topic stage..

However. If you have good feedback from your personal experience of any slider or cv product. Then it would be good in this thread.. As was originally asked.

I really don't know why you are in such an urgency to stop this discussion. The discussion and debates have remained reasonably on topic, there has been no swearing or abuse thrown, it is far from out of control, and even the original poster treesmith has appreciated the posts. Yes, some personal opinions have been expressed but this happens everyday on forums. I feel you're trying to place a little too much control here.

However, there really isn't much more to say anyway, nothing which hasn't already been said...

...I am happy that the testing my customers have given my product is proof enough that they are up to the job. Whether they are up to the tyoe of extreme 4wdriving thta you and Glenn participate in is another subject, but you are not the type of people who buy my product.

...do you think you are the only person that has ever driven a 90 on a tough track?

I drove my first 4wd track before you were born and can say with the utmost confidence that I have driven tracks harder than anything you have ever even seen.