Would you pull me out?

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Toyota sold my car to me and apart from warrantee issues my contract is completed with them.

I have no contract with Toyota either. So why should I listen to what they say, you don't?

I am not aware of a single failure of these AMRP's yet but it looks like using the factory point has been known to pull the front of the car off. I make that 1-0 to the AMRP's

1 to proof factory tow point behind strong enough to be safe. 0 to any proof of your yellow ones......

At the end of the day for me it's all about using the best available recovery point and to my mind the factory tow point is excluded as it is recommended against by the manufacturer.

So by process of elimination the AMRP is the best available option.

What is your argument?


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But we are out of contract so why are we listening to Toyota again?

I would trust the bloke down the pub before I'd trust Toyota lol

So we don't trust Toyota, so why are we talking about what they reccomended or not?

Double standards?

The chassis was designed by our jap friends at Toyota to take either a steel or alloy Bullbar!!!!
It is also designed to take a winch up to 9509lb. Yes was!!!!!

The holes you use to bolt up your yellow lollipops, they were not designed for it at all!!!! But should be ok to rip the chassis off, if you pull str8 ahead. Side pull, well dampen that one well!!!!

I'm open to looking at any recovery points, I will consider anything, from all the information I have will access if I need them. At this stage, I am even more confident of he factory tow points than when this thread started.
At the same time, I'm less confident with the bolted on options. Especially 2 bolts each side, is an absolute no go for me!

Catch you all later

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Toyota sold my car to me and apart from warrantee issues my contract is completed with them.

If I add accessories to my my car the supplier of the accessories assumes the design role, in this case Roadsafe. I have no need for a letter from Toyota. Roadsafe have designed my recovery plates specifically for my car, stamped them with a SWL and painted them bright yellow. I am very happy with them.

Your opinion of BS is your right but until I see your Struct eng. qualification and your calculations backing up your assumptions, my loverly yellow points will be staying where they are. I think the aftermarket points are the best and safest available method of recovering my vehicle.

As for snatching, I agree with the majority that believe it is dangerous and should only be used as a last resort.

Jasen you keep myself missing the point. No one has done the calculations, you would need Toyotas design drawings to do it, so the mounting points are not rated,.

And you can rest assured that regardless of what method you use no one will provide warranty if it fails.

Also the recovery plates produce a huge moment on the recovery mounting points, much more than the hoops, so you actually produce more stress than just pulling on the hoops. That's just basic design theory. It's sort of like using a lever or bar to open something rather than just pulling on it.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I'm open to looking at any recovery points, I will consider anything, from all the information I have will access if I need them. At this stage, I am even more confident of the factory tow points than when this thread started.
At the same time, I'm less confident with the bolted on options. Especially 2 bolts each side, is an absolute no go for me!

JAlso the recovery plates produce a huge moment on the recovery mounting points, much more than the hoops, so you actually produce more stress than just pulling on the hoops. That's just basic design theory. It's sort of like using a lever or bar to open something rather than just pulling on it.

I'm with you on this one ####, I did have a set of aftermarket tow points on my 'to do' list but this thread has resulted in me crossing them off as they actually put more strain on the chassis with the larger moment as Krypto says (a point I made back in post #221).

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I'm not a mechanical engineer but I don't think that having two 18,000 lb points is the same as one 36,000 lb one either.

Resurrecting this point, I have spoken to a mechanical engineer and he has confirmed what I thought but didn't want to write as I wasn't 100% sure.

If you have two 9,000lb rated points and a bridal and connect your recovery strap to the bridal such that it can move freely (e.g. using a shackle) then depending on the angle of the bridal you get the following:

For a 60 degree angle on the bridal: 1.73 * 9000 = 15,570 lb
For a 90 degree angle on the bridal: 1.41 * 9000 = 12,690 lb
For a 120 degree angle on the bridal: 1 * 9000 = 9,000 lb

As we don't use a shackle (for obvious reasons) then the recovery strap/bridal connection cannot be considered 'free moving' and you have to de-rate the load.

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Trekrider, I get the sense that no amount of logic will win this argument.

I have learnt a lot from this discussion, as a qualified mechanical engineer with over 30 years experience, for all the reasons that we have discussed there is no way that I will be fitting recovery points unless someone proves that the mounting points are designed for that purpose.

It is great that we have a forum like this to have an exchange of information.

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Just to give a bit of additional perspective consider the recovery points compared to the towbar.

My towbar is mounted directly both laterally and longitudinally to the chassis using 8 off 10.9 M12 bolts. The welded backet of the towbar wraps around the chassis for additional strength. It is attached to purpose made mounting points.

The entire towbar structure is rated at 3t dynamic load.

Compare this with the recovery point attachment which is two bolt holes in 2.5mm steel loaded through a lever that may not be properly mounted to the chassis (judging by some of the photos) and the argument is that this can handle a 5t offset dynamic load?

There is a basic concept that an older engineer taught me during my studies and training, called eyeing something in. Without doing calculations I can tell you that the recovery points don't look right, especially the incorrectly mounted ones.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

B - I used AMRP's and the smart ass lawyer says to me, were these rated recovery points. Under oath, I reply "yes they were" the lawyer is a 4x4 man and a fellow PP'er and has some knowledge of this issue and asks "were the AMRP's a fully engineered solution and do you have an engineers certificate for the plates, fixing bolts and design calculations that support the design for fix these plates to your specific car" I reply "I am very sorry but I am not a Struct Eng. and I am not qualified to discuss this subject. I bought my AMRP's from a reputable supplier as a DIY kit and followed the instructions to the letter. The points are stamped with SLW 5000KG and I understood that to be sufficient from the information provided by the supplier" Lawyer "Do you under oath swar that you have to the best of your knowledge and capability done all that was reasonably practical to prevent this incident?" I reply "I do so swar"

At this point you are now guilty of lying under oath as you have had the section on the suppliers website pointed out to you where it says that you (as the owner) are responsible for ensuring that it is structurally sound.

I believe that my day in court is now complete and the next door that is knocked on would be the supplier of the AMRP's.

And said supplier says to the court that they made it very plain on their website that the points were Tow Points only and that they are not responsible for ensuring the application you (as the owner) have done with them. They then point the court to this statement:

"It is at the vehicle owners discretion for fitment, ensuring that the chassis is adequately designed, constructed and/or rated to suit this application."

So, the court comes back to you and asks if you followed the suppliers instructions to ensure that the chassis is adequately designed, constructed and/or rated to suit this application. To which you say, "No, I didn't" - Oh dear now you are in deep trouble.

If you guys think the factory points are good enough for your purposes and you are happy to disregard the manufacturers recommendation, it is my opinion that you could be at risk should there be a failure of your factory points and an injury occurs. You will have in my opinion failed your duty of care and not done all that is reasonably practical to prevent this incident.

Anyone that is reading this thread and is interested in their duty of care, I would urge you to do all that is reasonably practical and install AMRP's.

As shown above it makes no difference if you use the factory loops or aftermarket points, you are still liable as Toyota will disclaim the factory tow points and the aftermarket company will disclaim the aftermarket points.

You are absolutely correct that your duty of care means you should do all that is reasonably practical to prevent any incident. I believe the way to cover this is to exclude everyone not directly involved from the area, to use the minimum force possible, to use dampers, safety loops etc., to dig out first, to get training, not use tow balls and everything else that we all agree you should do to make the recovery as safe as is possible.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Trekrider, I get the sense that no amount of logic will win this argument.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument

I have learn't a lot from this discussion, as a qualified mechanical engineer with over 30 years experience, for all the reasons that we have discussed there is no way that I will be fitting recovery points unless someone proves that the mounting points are designed for that purpose.

It is great that we have a forum like this to have an exchange of information.

Completely agree - I have said a few times that I'm not happy with the two bolt aftermarket points (and why).

[smakb Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close smakb]

I don't care if you use the factory points or the after market points, if a person gets injured it has nothing to do with the recovery points. It's due to incorrect recovery procedures. That's all there is to it.

I use the after market points, but I have no issues with pulling a car out that has only factory points. There is no perfect answer for a Prado but lots of bad recoveries with people not following basic safety procedures.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I understand your technical argument but what I don't understand is why you want to encourage people to use the factory recovery points.

I'm not encouraging anyone to use anything.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

It's all academic, Prados don't need recovery!

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Jasen, service/ oil change is like brushing your teeth.
3 times a day?
2 times a day?
Once?
Or once a week?

The more the better. It all depends how long you wan it to last.

Can I have that in writing? Put to bed?
I don't believe it, your not going to argue something?

OK THE END.

P.s I will try and think of something else

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

#### you did well mate 330 posts on a subject put to bed many times before.

It's been fun lol


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It's in a much nicer bed now. Ciao babe.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Lol new question for anyone not already participated that's considering your recovery point.

Has this thread helped you decide and if so what way will you go?


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C u can't resist.
Go to the gtg chat thread & tell us why your not coming?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

#### you did well mate 330 posts on a subject put to bed many times before.

It's been fun lol


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But Andrew (AJ120) hasn't returned to civilisation yet, so there's more mileage in it yet - sorry Jasen that should be kms so that should be 330 * 1.6 = 528 posts Couldn't resist