Off topic Home Solar Systems!

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

I just opened my latest electricity bill and apart from wondering how I can afford to pay the bill itself, the cost of visiting the heart specialist everytime the bill comes is getting a bit high as well

So anyway I think it is time to look seriously at going solar and initial research leaves me totally confused.

Given that many of the knowledgeable people on this forum have probably looked into and even run solar on their house I thought I should get some ideas of what the traps are and who the dodgy operators are.

So I understand that not all solar panels are equal and I am only interested in a quality system, but who is a good operator to contact for a quote (rural SA), does anyone have any idea on the payback period? I don't think I need to produce excess enery to sell back to the grid, just eliminate most of my own bill.

I have 3 phase power does that have any effect?

Government rebates, I gather I may have missed the boat for these?

I have ample unshaded North facing roof space, so at least that part is easy, or am I missing something?

What questions do I need to ask when the experts start throwing facts and prices at me.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers Andrew

[ondaboat Coopers Pale Ale Find all posts View Profile Close ondaboat]

Another Option

Do you think between DJ & MrsAJ120 they could get the bill down with one of these?

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Andrew best advice I can give you is to join the Whirlpool forum if you haven't already and search out the relavent info in the green tech forum.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/143

There is a fairly recent post on what to look for in a system as well as suggestions for systems in various areas.

No idea what FIT you guys have left but that will be answered in the forum.

3 phase makes no difference. Depending what size system you go for you simply install on one or more phases. I have a 3kW system feeding into one phase. A new meter will record incoming power and outgoing power. Assume you will be on a net system.

If you are after more detailed info feel free to pm me.

Michael

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Thanks Micheal, looks like it could be more information overload........... but 5 minutes on the forum and I have already learned a bit.

Adam, I am not even touching your suggestion, no way, I value my life too much!

Cheers Andrew

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Yeah AJ while our bill isn't over the top compared to some only just last week we had some quotes done and Im lost also. The latest is that we are better to be at home through the day to use the power the sun is going to give us as this is when we will make the most of our solar, bit stupid to me as we only have fridge running and the usual things that are on stand by ??? nothing goes back to the grid as such so what ever power the sun makes for us and we dont use goes to waste ???

Then we have the so called smart meter, ours is sitting there but still hooked up as normal (flat rate) thank christ thats not hooked up or our bill would be double, smart ?? my arse !!! These things are screwing people over big time. We have a set rate at the moment which is just under 23c round the clock. The smart meter has peak 44c, off peak 11c, then shoulder time which I think for memory around 22c. Now peak is between 2pm and 8pm (hottest time of day and when people will be cooking their dinners,assholes) shoulder time is 8pm to 10pm and 7.30am till 2pm.Off peak is 10pm till 7.30, now what the hell can you do in that time (off peak) to save any $$ one load in the dish washer before you go to bed and the same with the washing machine, gunna save jack shit.

So then you have mums who stay at home to look after the little ones so in the hottest time of the day 1pm/2pm onwards when you need to run the aircon its going to cost you peak cost, then you have the pensioners who are home all day cause they cant friggin afford to go anywhere and then cant afford to run their aircons to either warm up or cool down.

This government needs the biggest boot up their arse so they remember who they screwed......................Cheers Steve

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

BHP at Leinster decided to something green and installed solar panels on all the houses and buildings in the mining town. That's the good news. The bad news is that some over-zealous OH&S nut has tagged all the control boxes as unserviceable because they are all mounted just below the ceilings making them a working at heights risk. Therefor none will be connected to the grid until all the boxes are moved down to eye level.

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Hi guys

Here is a few mainly focusing on the con's but there is a few pos's.

I personally prefer on reducing energy usage a milk the crap out of the off peak energy with the smart meter and use low energy lighting etc..... Doesn't really work if you have to run a family due to the time zoning but it does works for me.

One energy saving i do is switch my off peak hot water on every fith day in the summer and every 3rd in the winter. (I have 250ltr hot water tank off peak 1).. Have already bought a 300ltr near new tank off eBay for when my existing tank dies in the future as they no longer make tanks as the government is forcing for solar.

If i was pushed in a corner for cheaper energy i would choose gas as there is still allot of room for more efficient energy and prices will drop in the future. (Instant hot water does work out cheap to run also).

Solar panels also have to be kept clean to keep optimum officiancy. (I wont be climbing on the roof every year to clean them) Lol.

I will put this one on the fore-front as i see it as con's and can not be ignored!

Should solar panel payments be taxed?
http://theconversation.edu.au/should...-be-taxed-1362

Bad Things About Solar Panels
http://www.livestrong.com/article/12...-solar-panels/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/12...-solar-energy/

Low-tech Magazine (Gas seems to be a good option till solar improves).
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/...ly-side-o.html

Solar Power And The Environment: Be Aware Of The 3 Negative Effects Of Solar Power
http://www.authorpalace.com/environm...er-133414.html

Positive Ground vs. Negative Ground Solar Panels??? I put this for the guys in the bush!
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/show...d-Solar-Panels

Pros & Cons of Solar Power/Panels
http://earth911.com/news/2007/10/15/...f-solar-power/

Hope this lot above stimulates the conversation on solar vs other options....!

Cheers

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Thanks for the links,

We don't have smart meters here so that is no help to me.

We don't have mains gas, only bottled and that is not that much better than electricity.

Also I am not worried about "saving the planet" if I help all well and good but its not a deciding factor for me. I am really looking at this as an investment, how much return on capital can I get. If I can spend 10 or 15k on a system and get twice the return I do from having that money sitting in the bank then I will probably go solar.


Cheers Andrew

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Hi there skywalkerrun, we have gas for heating and hot water. We have a Rinnai Infinity hot water system which is a ripper, heats as you go so never run out of hot water and there is no pilot light on all the time, flick the flip mixer and off she goes. We also have a controller in the shower so we can set the temp the water comes out at. I set it at 42c for myself, no need to even turn the cold water on at all. Our last power bill was $358 this next one will be higher due to running the aircon a few times at night all the way through because of the little ones asthma. I use to freak at $300 lol.

We can still do a few things to lower the bill, not all our light bulbs are the energy saving type but we do have fluro's in the kitchen which are on most of the time and 2 lamps in the lounge room which also have the energy saving bulbs. We cant do to much more without going solar. The bloke reckons we would save $1200 a year on a 3kw system at a supply and fit price of $5800 ??? I'm sceptical about this. With what our bill is now and supposidly the best time to use power through the day with the solar panels so Im only going to pay say $58 per bill ?? (obviously based on all my bills been $358 which they wont be). If this was the case I would of thought that I would be seeing a shit load more panels on roofs then I have.........Cheers Steve

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Forgot to mention that was also German Panels not Chinese panels. BUT then I was told there all made in China anyway ?? Was also quoted on Panasonic Panels ..............Also was told would get 10 years from Chinese panels at there best and the German ones 15 years ??........... Cheers Steve

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Andrew,

In addition to above and apologies for the long post, you don't have to read it. This is something I prepared earlier but the answer is pretty much the same. Couldn't dig it out on the mobile device before now:

Some simple points:

Stick with known brands of panels and inverter, again Whirlpool is your friend
Go with a company who has been doing installs for years not months and be prepared to pay more than what is advertised in the weekend papers (ie don't use those suppliers and certainly not a one shop for all type vendor)
Try to find a company that has its own electricians that way warranty is direct to the company not the company trying to find some contractor with the correct license (this is harder than it sounds)
Check your roof orientation and angle and construction and height as these all affect performance and install cost
Google solar calculators and go onto near map or similar to look for shading from morning to evening. Shade is a killer, even one panel in the shade can bring the whole string down. It's not just trees but sewer vent pipes, TV aerials, chimneys, neighbours TV aerial etc etc.
THEN call at least two preferably more companies and get quotes, if they won’t come to your house to preview the install before they quote give them a miss. Make sure the quote includes everything.
Ask for the supplier/manufacturer for panels, inverter, rails, etc etc get it all down on paper (panels are guaranteed for 20/25 years and inverters 2 but you can squeeze and get 4 or 5)
Call your electricity supplier and check what deals they will do and whether you will be up for costs to replace or reprogram your meter
Whirlpool has a thread dedicated to dodgy installs, read it carefully before the install so you know what looks wrong
And then when the install is happening watch carefully, make sure they don’t drill through the valleys of roof sheets or just lift tiles to mount the rails and so on
Solar systems that are grid connected shutdown when there is a power outage, that is to prevent the linesman getting a nice boot from the solar arrays in the area. Batteries come into the system if you have a standalone or an isolated system during such outages. Solar feeds into a battery bank and then back through the inverter when the sun isn't working. Grid connected battery backup systems need special approval and automatic isolation during outages with manual reconnection.
As for the generators the biggest problem is the network. Most transformers weren't designed for back energisation so Energex and Ergon etc will be very careful how much alternative energy is fed into the grid, not just solar but wind power etc. Remember you are generating DC voltage, inverting that to 240 V AC and then the transformers are stepping that UP to the grid. The amount of solar generation in Qld is a drop in the ocean compared to installed capacity, spinning reserve and current surplus. I guess if the whole state suddenly went from full sunshine to full shade there might be some frequency trouble initially but it wouldn't make the grid unstable.

Also energy use during the middle portion of the day when solar is generating at its best is almost all commercial and industrial so demand isn't an issue. Morning and evening peaks are when everyone is at home cooking and having showers etc and in particular chucking the a/c or heating on after a hard day at the office are what the generators have to plan around...
The change to feed in tariffs (FIT) will change how systems are operated. Because I got in early I am getting 52c/kWh net feed with grid cost back now being 25c or so subject to AGL final pricing. We tend to minimise what is used during the day so that we export as much electricity as possible. With the reduced FIT it is cheaper to use your own electricity and only import when you have no solar power. This is where battery systems will come into their own. Store your cheap electricity during the day and minimise the obscene peak power charges that NSW and others seem to suffer.
My system should pay for itself in 3 to 4 years, probably closer to 4 since the recent price increase. On an 8c FIT it is a long long haul. Having said that I expect in 5 -10 years time or so there will be something different that we can all use so I didn't budget for my system making a profit, just dropping my electricity bills down to a reasonable level. We are on tank water and have our own biocycle so our electricity usage is higher than average though we don't pay water or sewerage rates which helps offset that. 4 adults at home and the last bill was $50 including supply fees, GST etc etc I guess the next one will be up $150 or so based on speculation and rumour.
I did quite a bit of research and selected my supplier. Not a fly by night ex roof insulation ex anything else but an electrical company that has been in business about 100 years which started solar installs about 3 years ago. I bought good quality parts and paid a premium for that. Compared to the cheapest and nastiest systems I paid about $1500 more. But I don't have lucky dragon (sic) panels and a who flung dung inverter (this is not a slur on Chinese or other Asian product, my panels are Chinese and my inverter is made in a Chinese factory), I have a good quality inverter with a 5 year warranty and the only time I had a concern I sent an email to the company and they had one of their sparkies at my place within a couple of hours which is very reassuring. And yes I had an intermittent bad connection from one string from a locally made connector. When I asked whether I needed extra labelling as my meter and main switch is off my property they sent out a complete set of labels for me to double up with. My system complied anyway but they did this at no cost, no argument. I also know of two people who went with a cheapie system and have had dramas with failures and install quality. And in one case waiting for 6 months for the install.
Would I install now with the 8c FIT and existing Qld tariffs? No. When we built I toyed with the idea of going stand alone. We are nearly 300m from the nearest power line and the cost to run decent capacity that far are quite high. But still lower by a factor of 5 or 6 than going stand alone. The battery bank I would need would mean having a shed with Haz Chem status. Too many batteries and too much risk. Wind is inconsistent and all up too much risk. Then I was able to get some steel wire armoured cable 2nd hand so that made the decision to run 3ph underground to the house a no brainer.
NSW and probably all the other states are going to a 3 or 4 tier cost structure and as such the peak costs are much higher than normal supply let alone shoulder or off peak. Sadly solar will not offset this. However I think in this case solar is still a good investment. If your FIT is less than what you are paying for electricity then use it first, store it if you can and again that is a financial and space consideration and minimise your peak usage. Use a slow cooker during the day or use gas (we have gas cooking and water heating) and run your washing machine and dryer (greenies no need to comment) off peak. That means hard wiring but the cost savings are significant. If the FIT is higher than what you pay for electricity then minimise everything that you use during the day and export as much as possible. Same story applies though with the peak tariff.
As for the reduction in FITs just about every state has done the same thing and some a couple of years before Queensland. While I am happy to benefit from it all the FITs that were out there were too generous. NSW original gross FIT was the dumbest. These schemes were to encourage the uptake of solar systems which prior to any FIT and RECs were not good economic sense (even in my case as above where it was going to cost $15k to run power). I think some better planning up front would have seen a less generous FIT that was sustainable longer for more people, not just those who got in early. Maybe 25c /kWh instead of 44c for example and then run the system for 15 years not 25 for the few who sign up in the first 3 years and on. Anyway this is not the place for such a debate.
Another point is that the distributers have a magic figure of 30% solar in feed for the majority of the network. Now I am not sure where this comes from or if it is even real but I do know several people who have been denied connection simply because there are too many installs already on their transformer.
Of the systems I am aware of 3 have 1.5kW systems, each has a young family and their bills are slightly positive overall and they will pay off their systems in 3 years give or take a couple of months. Another 1.5kW (lucky dragon) system seems to be allergic to sunlight and will pay itself off over more than 7 years. Another system 5kW but similar circumstances to me, have positive bills. And mine, a 3kW system that cost me $9k and has generated 7MWh since installation and saved my something like $3k in electricity costs, no positive bills but a healthy offset. Not bad considering the weather we have had this last year.
So Andrew in addition to what I wrote first do your sums. Work out what your electricity bills are and are likely to be. Check your usage during day and night, when you are happy to run the washing machine and pool pumps and the rest. Look at the age of your whitegoods and their power consumption and think about getting newer more efficient whitegoods if that is appropriate. And last check the latest tariffs since all have recently gone up for a host of reasons and then work out if it is viable commercially for you or whether you just want to do your bit for the planet and not worry so much about how long it takes to break even. I wouldn't for a second consider that a solar install is a capital investment on your house so don't even go there.

Michael

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Thanks for all that Micheal, I read it all, but I have been doing a lot of reading today.

Generally from what I see on Whirlpool, payback times seem to be a lot better than I might have thought. If I can save the capital investment in say 5 years then thats 20% return on investment, and tax free, its a no brainer if thats how it works out.

We also pump a lot of our own water, although we have mains as well and the pump certainly adds to the electricity bill. Our bill is way more than average, but I do a lot of welding which is probably the killer, my bill this quater jumped well past the 4 figure mark for the first time so thats what prompted me to start researching.

Cheers Andrew

[Daz Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Daz]

Also I am not worried about "saving the planet" if I help all well and good but its not a deciding factor for me.


Cheers Andrew

Thats good that you arent on a crusade. While Im all for doing everything I can to preserve the environment, its worth noting that your panels most likely will never produce the amount of energy that went into making them.

I have a 5Kw unit, that has produced 7.5Mw in last 12 months, with 3.5Mw being exported. With 47 cents unit FIT, my bill has gone from average $700 - $800 to pretty much $zero.

I have a 3ph supply, but they just change the meter to a 3 phase Feed in model, and all ok. We run a number of pumps for irrigation and pool, and by adjusting the timers means we get to export lots while we are making most power, then only pay 20c/unit if we import later in day. The 3ph air cond chews through it as well.

Im looking at about 5 year payback. Sort of hard to work it out, as each time power goes up, the payback probably gets quicker.

If anything, the other sidekick from having them is it gets the household thinking about their usage. Lights being left on, damn TVs running with no-one in front of them, switch some standby power off, and switch off the spare fridge in shed that is only keeping some old bait frozen, turn pool pump timer down during Winter and suddenly makes a noticeable difference.

[Wazza2 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Wazza2]

I agree with a lot of what Michael has said.

Given we got ours early 2010 our payback is around 7yrs due to cost of install back then. Still a good investment and one I'm glad we made.

I would consider off grid system if i did it again, even though we are in the city. They can't change FIT and bugger how long it takes to pay back then. Legislation is there for changing so to me, our 2028 gazetted rate in Qld for those who got in early is unlikely to last that long.

Once you have solar the electricity bill is a much nicer envelope to open.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Ok I have just had a 3KW system installed by true value solar.

Installation was carried out quickly and professionally, system cost was around $6000 which covered
everything including installation over split roofs.

The system on a sunny clear day produces 3.2KW so does what it specked to do.

As for pay back:

Average daily output (Melbourne) for the month has been 6.2KWh.

My average daily consumption is about 27KWh including off peak hot water, as an aside, I did an audit to see where the power is being used, one of the biggest surprise was the ducted heater, the fan uses around .5KW when running!

So savings at the moment aren't great but hopefully during summer unit will generate
slightly more than my daily consumption.

Other things to keep in mind, my retail power vendor does not offer pay on time or other discounts when your on a solar tariff.

The cents per KW used though is slightly lower and the daily supply charge is lower.

You only get payed for what you put back into the grid in excess of your consumption ie in my circumstance
I will be unlikely to ever receive a payment for power unless I get rid of the kids!

I estimate my bill for the month without solar would be about $242.

With pay on time discount $188

With Solar and no discounts $178

So as you can see savings over winter are not great, hopefully much better over summer.

My advice to anyone contemplating solar is put in the biggest system you can afford, I would
have opted for a 4KW system but just did not have the roof space.

Cheers
LeighW